john: if we have as much they're would be almost and poverty. john: after the welfare state. that's our show tonight.

♪ john: american is a rich country. it seems wrong then when there's so much wealth around some americans have -- are so poor. this weekend. cholera requires is taking a little more money from rich people and putting in the programs like welfare and job training. i believe i was in college and. the students are today. my professors tell me that the experts in washington have found the solution to poverty. i believe but then i became a reporter. i watched the of what our rework not work. i watched as it created a poverty industry, lots of

victims and bureaucrats who specialize in sucking money out of washington d.c. to give to them and to themselves. over the years most poor people state court. they are still poor. how can that be when we spend so much on poverty programs. >> we will spend $1 trillion. over the next decade. the top trend -- top 10 trillion. john: many other republican study committee, a group of congressmen who were worried about government spending. the committee chairman is congressman jim jordan. what do you want to do? cut for people of? >> no, we want to help them get to a better life. what you need to do is create programs that actually help people get to a better life. john: ever done before. >> you do it by not waving the work requirement like this administration did. you -- john: to be fair, they have not totally waived a work requirement. they let some states experiment.

>> they also let some states not have a work requirement and there sang were not going to require that one key element that helps people get to the american dream, experiences. did the job. that is what we want to see. that key ingredient to accomplish anything that we all learn. john: how? that was already in the original welfare reform act? we have a new welfare reform act, updated version. >> for trying to get a handle on all of the social welfare spending the federal government does. estimates are 600 billion the year when you factor in medicaid and the 70 plus different programs that are out there. john: the original act was just welfare. did not hit the other 70 some programs. >> nutrition, job training, education, health care. wouldn't it make sense just have for? think about this. john: make everybody work to be eligible. >> we had a bill introduced two weeks ago where we said let's put in the work component for food stamps.

let's establish the critical link that helps americans get to their goals and dreams. let's have a work requirement. john: the truly hopeless of a mother with six kids. how is she going to work in to care for kids? >> it will be willing to help those individuals. we will help those who can work it in the skills they need, required that. it's like a anything else. many have a requirement it influences behavior and of to do to a better experience and life style. >> i certainly agree with you. according to some politicians when more people get food stamps and one in seven americans now get them, that's actually good for the economy. >> if you want to create jobs the quickest is to provide more funding for food stamps. john: create jobs with food stamps. >> it would be laughable.

making that statement. it's wrong on two counts. you're taking money from someone else. redistributing and giving it to someone else. that's always a problem. the government acting as a middleman. second, the facts. it hasn't worked. i've said all along. government spending, regulation will get us out of this economic mess. we have -- we would be out of it a long time ago. you're taking a for one and giving it to another which is problematic and then the simple fact is it hasn't worked. john: another attack on you. republicans, the national journal article. the democrats say this conservative attack on the social welfare program is being waged for the very wealthy. congressman richard neal from massachusetts. my god, can we do any more to help the wealthy that our republican friends? >> think about their own personal life or anyone in your audience, those occasions were you actually accomplish

something of meaning and significance. i call them moments of magnitude where you had a goal or a dream and worked hard and made it happen. what we are doing to some many people who are not dependent on government in this culture we are creating is robbing them of that experience which is central to being an american. congressman is just wrong. he is the one trapping people into this cultural dependency on the government. robbing them of that critical experience that we have all had and we know has made us a better individual, a better neighbor, a better husband, father, whenever. made us a better american. that is what we are robbing people of and we keep giving people things and not requiring those key skills and traits and character called -- qualities than necessary. john: the first welfare bill that the president clinton reluctantly signed, people said there would be people starving in the streets. that didn't happen. half the people got off low rolls and the poverty rate went

down. there were happier. >> exactly right. the first thing that ever got past. get elected to the house of representatives and ohio. i don't know if that's good or bad. anyway. the first thing that got past was an amendment to the welfare reform bill which required time limits. after a certain point in time if you are an able-bodied adult we will no longer pay you for not working, and guess what happened? no one got kicked off. no one got ticked off because deadlines influence behavior. from going to find a job or going to go get the skills to get a job so i'll have to face that deadline in the kicked off of any type of public health assistance. it worked. those people have moved on to a better -- john: that video which makes reference to the welfare reform. your new version of it. let's plan that clip. >> almost 3 million families. we can do it again.

help get americans out of poverty. the welfare reform act of 2011. john: what is with the video? the picture. >> i'm not sure. we have some great young conservative staffers. folks in your audience tonight. john: libertarians. >> the same thing. pretty much the same thing. i can tell. >> it's not the same, is it? [applause] >> the welfare system is so complicated government can't keep track of the money. acorn. they used to get millions of tax dollars. that video, doing things like helping a pretend panpipe from the law. john: congress killing their funding. so acorn is gone except that they are not on. they just changed shapes. as dan epstein of the taxpayer watchdog group cause of action. what do you mean? >> my organization has been looking at acorn in is reprinted

affiliate's of the past year, and we have seen that there are now 1704 groups out there, at least some of which including the mutual housing association of new york here in new york city are getting taxpayer dollars. yet we don't know if they're actually doing anything with that money. john: its new groups. not the same thing. >> the same directors, the same tax i.d. numbers, the same employee edification numbers. in many cases the same employees >> congress cuts them off and they just change names. >> i can tell you that when i were to the house oversight committee as an investigator we went to the inspector general's office, and an auditor told the committee staff when we found direct evidence of acorn housing misusing federal grant money, the auditor said, look, is $10 million. a $10 million grant. when you're dealing with that little amount of money we don't actually conducted on. as the state of affairs. john: but these are poverty workers. i assume most of them are

helping people. there are a few bad apples. but so what if it's the same people. there were not all trying to help the fake punt break the law . >> these organizations are about politics, and that is white special concern if they are getting our tax dollars to engage in politics. you know, they are not decreasing the role of government. they're not increasing social welfare. they're putting a social burden on all of us because you just think about things like the community reinvestment act. the clinton administration. that was something that acorn housing pushed for. they lobbied in front of bank of america and nations bank in order to get these guarantees. now what we see is bank of america foundation gives millions of dollars to these groups in order to get them on their side. this is cronyism. this is cronyism. acorn then uses those grants to say, heiden neighbor works, these government programs that

came out of it into administration, give us money. john: thank you. stick around. the audience would like to question you. coming up, we will talk to the guy in charge of welfare in my town. [applause] this happy couple used capital one venture miles for their "destination wedding." double miles you can "actually" use. but with those single mile travel cards... [ bridesmaid ] blacked out... but i'm a bridesmaid. oh! "x" marks the spot she'll never sit. but i bought a dress! a toast... ...to the capital one venture card. fly any airline, any flight, anytime. double miles you can actually use. what a coincidence? what's in your wallet? [ all screaming ] watch the elbows ladies.

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♪ [applause] john: this show supports limited government. the reason that many in government will not appear on this program. i was surprised to get this e-mail. i have admired your reporting, and if you ever want to talk to someone with experience running government social service programs i would be happy. that came from the boss of a big piece of the welfare state, the new york city human resources administration. the rich array employs 15,000 people who give benefits to my neighbors, food stamps, home care, job centers and someone, commissioner robert door runs the office. so welcome, commissioner. i appreciate you coming on my show. >> thank you for having me. john: i admire you for trying, but my assumption is that your

-- [applause] john: you have 15,000 employees. i assume they want to help people and they direct the jobs, but teen years and their civil servants just going through the motions. you can't fire the bad ones. >> we have something called jobs data. we call our said directors of a monthly basis and ask them how they're doing getting people to work.

we set a goal. 85,000 last year. we did it in there on track to do it this year. john: placements meeting. >> getting employment. john: it does not need -- >> not everybody steps up and we have people who this is -- program to assist people. we stress work and require it. john: have your 15,000 employees , can you fire bad ones? without going through an unbelievable who. >> a civil service rules a new yorker difficult. you have people that are not doing exactly what you want. i would knowledge that the mob by and large it's our employees do a good job and believed, welfare policies, the most conservative people on welfare are the caseworkers to see the welfare recipients every day. they go to work. they are showing up every day, and a speck the same from people who ask for assistance. john: i suspect your programs teach dependency and encourage it. now and then i get your centers and interview people. but jobs around?

have you looked for a job? >> i can't work right now because i'm on disability. >> there's nothing out there. nothing. john: no jobs? >> no. john: no jobs. we heard that again and again. my researchers watch around within a couple blocks and found 40 businesses hiring. within a few blocks of the jobs into 24 offered jobs for beginners. the people getting handouts don't bother to apply. so i wondered, as i said, what your employees really do the job center. i asked a college intern. go there and ask them for help. tell them what you did? >> i went to a job center downtown in new york city and said, i. on a college intern. >> the san jacinto where there were saying there's no jobs. >> the exact same center. as of looking for a job, what can you do? they still me as to go and apply for food stamps and that there would not help me unless i was with -- receiving handouts. i walked across town and went to another job center.

they said the same thing. they tell me, we don't give jobs. we give out food stamps. >> i can't account for every encounter an individual may have. i will say this, did you get on the success? >> i did not. >> she did get any benefits. [applause] >> i wasn't looking for assistance. i wanted to work. john: did you have got assistance? there were offering it. >> and shrek and have applied if i wanted to. >> she didn't she didn't get assistance. john: tell the rest of your story. you kept looking. >> i did. i went to work force center in harlem. it took the train all the way up there. they turned me away. they said, we can help you get. come back at 8:30 a.m. next week and go to a jobs training session. john: she could have found a job on her own more easily than going to all these government health centers. eventually they get you an interview. the food store. he talks to the manager.

he said, look. >> i waited. i went to prep for an interview and it turned out it was just a public open house or anyone could walk in. waited an hour and a half and finally put to the manager until the my story, tell them about work force when he said that he really communicates with workforce one. he said they never call him, never asking questions. and i asked how the people that they send? of the people you want to hire and he said no. >> the fact is that welfare caseloads are 360,000 to as low as it was in 1965. that is because we have a work requirement in new york city. john: that is absolutely great, but i still think of your 15,000 employees, and we're talking about an employment, there is some of it, but if the soviet union. >> we do a lot more than just cash assistance. bright public health insurance, no protective services, child-support enforcement which goes after deadbeat dads to make sure they pay. recollected $700 million for families. $200 million from on cs to be on

welfare, so it's a big agency. does not just to cash welfare. what's funny about our program is that the old cash welfare program is much, much smaller than the rest of the agency. in the old days was a big part of the agency. john: now medicaid -- these are much bigger programs. agreed. but as you look at the sole service rules, do you think, we're trying. it's hard to fire people. i can't really manage the way i would if i were in the private sector. the charity would do it better. >> i don't. honestly. i don't think that charity all by itself would provide public concerns to the number of people we provide in new york city. the fact is, employers don't provide for low-wage workers insurance anymore. they don't. i don't know what happened. fifty-six catholic hospitals. >> i don't think it would be able to survive without some form of public concerns. i think if you want to talk about welfare spending and look at the statistics, make sure you make a differentiation between medicaid spending which is

$30 billion versus cash welfare which is $1 billion. so there is a difference. and medicaid, you're right. health care costs are driving this country to bankruptcy. don't blame it on poor people seeking welfare or food stamps. john: on that note thank you. please stick around. our audience has questions for you, but coming up how is america, a place where this goes on. also, some solutions for life also, some solutions for life after the welfare state.ve late.

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♪ john: the show tonight is titled after the welfare state to mostly because i like the title of this new book. it is meant for younger people, and it argues that it's your job stunned do the work of the welfare state is politicians like bismarck. he started social security

income in germany. then in america roosevelt, kennedy, johnson, nixon and bush, and so what. the atlas foundation made this video to introduce. >> welfare states are disappearing into a sea of ready. children born today face a lifetime of taxes to pay for benefits. shore said of politicians are stealing the future for many people. john: what do you mean stealing the future? >> basically politicians of ron gant people of there future. they're required to put money into what amounts to a big ponzi scheme. it is a pyramid scheme. pay current recipients. social security, medicare, medicaid. they will get stuck for the bill. the unfunded liabilities are staggering. very conservative estimate.

just the gap between what they're going to tax and what they're going to have to spend. john: no money in anybody's accounts. it's just a promise and there are more old people who expect to get our health care paid for. >> the so-called trust fund is an i/o you. it is in a file drawer in west virginia. it says i/o you. $80 trillion. john: these college students have to pay for it, and their just aren't enough of them because people my age wrigley refused to die. >> well, that is one way to look at it. but even setting aside the life span going up, the system was broke the date was established because it is a pay-as-you-go system. if any private company, insurance company, investment scheme had this financial structure, there ceo would be in prison. in fact, bernie madoff is in prison. he could have been had a social security. [applause]

john: after the welfare state. what are they supposed to do? >> the first thing is to understand that we have to take responsibility and be realistic. those benefits are not going to be there. they have been promised, but the politicians cannot make good on a. is arithmetic. things that can't keep going on won't. this will come to an end. now the question is what will come after. what happens to poor people. john: the commissioner of welfare said private charity will be enough to help them. >> the welfare state is about the poor. they do not go to the poor. they're turned among the middle class is. goes out of one pocket and into the other. regina handling fee. john: foreign subsidies, subsidies for business. >> over $100 billion a year in handouts, corporate welfare. john: back to the poor.

he says charity won't take care of us in most people believe that. >> i think it's wrong. all tell you why. a cascade of different ways. first is self-help. that is the most important thing. helping people help themselves. second is not charity. mutual late, people taking care of themselves. americans are big joiners of associations. over 30 percent of the adult population, lodges. this was before the welfare state. so one-third of the adults joined these mutual aid societies. john: and they helped each other >> help each other and all kinds of ways. they provided benefits, they provided hospitals. think about all the masonic hospitals. those are all built voluntarily with money that people voluntarily gave to help the members of their community to

help the indigent or the people that have bad luck. primarily these were people helping each other. most of them had been wiped out by the welfare state. john: of white doves visited the people said, the government's going to do this. there's no point. >> first to pay the tax and then you pay the dues to an organization. systematically displaced. western europe, the united said -- the united states. john: the government said they are not perfect. >> and we can create giant constituencies that will reinforce each other. you talk about 15,000 employees in the new york city welfare system. every one of those is a voter. they'd all like to see the systems cut. john: you argue that these mutual let societies would take care of the people they needed help if they were still around today that they would do a better job than his 15,000

employees. >> they would, could, can, and should. i give you one example the works really well in this invisible the most people. our caller synonymous. any city in the united states, 24 hours a day you can call in number. those meetings every night of the weeks. john: and it works a lot better than government rehabilitation programs. [applause] thank-you. next, a new place without a welfare state. a free city is about to be born. what will that be like? we will take you there next. want to try to crack it? yeah, that's the way to do it! now we need a little bit more... a little bit more vanilla? this is great! [ male announcer ] at humana, we believe there's never been a better time to share your passions...

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♪ john: in america of the welfare

state grows and government takes more power. i hope that will change, but i'm not optimistic as thomas jefferson said, the natural progressive things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. he said that years ago, and he has been proven right. what if there was a way to create a new kind of government, a more limited one that jefferson had in mind that helps poor people by freeing the free-market to work its magic. a free city not too far from the united states where americans could move. that may happen cent. a central american country recently signed an agreement with a group of investors to build a privately run city. its own police force, no income tax, no sales tax, no capital gains tax to all the property tax and no federal regulation. it sounds good to me. the man behind it joins us now

from honduras. you came on the show a year ago to discuss the idea of a free city and its thousand you have made progress. >> we made considerable progress. we expect we will be able to break ground within 30 days after the honduran government finalizes the legislation identifying the regions and also appointing a governor. john: already the honduran legislature passed the bill authorizing the general principles 126-1. they are behind it. >> incredibly popular. congress realizes the best hope for prosperity is to create a special development regions. model that the special development regions that have been so spectacularly successful in china which has cities scale special development regions. also dubai which had 110-acre region that had its own legal system that imported british common law "by international

financial center which resulted in billions of dollars of capital flowing in and one of the greatest financial centers in the world. john: sharia law. >> except for in the financial center where they realize that by importing bridges, they could actually attract international capital. there is no way they could attract billions of dollars in specifically financial capital in the financial restitutions. so simply very practical and took the best legal system in which to do business, financial business. honduras was going to have the best kind of legal system for creating businesses of all sorts john: you're going to use texas law? >> we are proposing to the perspective under and governor that a default texas legal system without u.s. federal law is pretty good law. most american business people respect and feel comfortable with texas commercial law. many hondurans felt comfortable.

separate. the red -- they have to figure out where that is, but it's a good brand globally for business and it will help attract significant capital to the project. john: so you have this area, 150 miles from where you are now in the capitol, and some left-wing activist in honduras say you're going to steal land from a honduran tried. >> that is simply a misunderstanding. there was an earlier version of the project which was near the region where there have been problems with various people taking land from indigenous tribes. we have absolutely nothing to do with that. hundreds of kilometers away. as a matter of principle we are buying the land, options on land from private landowners to have clear titles to sell at market prices for. john: americans are going to go there and say, i want to open a factory? >> they will.

our goal is to the hell -- help the most customer friendly government on earth. we think of some companies, nordstrom's provides great customer service. but if you have a government that provided really great customer service? it was efficient, effective, and transparent. that is a pitch that a lot of businesses like. john: what the politicians change. enough of this capitalist experiment. were going to take it back. >> no politician wants to be against a region that is successfully creating jobs. even when hard left-wing presidents were briefly in charge of honduras, he did not touch the freeze ounce. hundreds of thousands of jobs juristic. we believe that although the legal infrastructure including laws against appropriation and a requirement that a country compensates for appropriation or one layer of protection to much better to create jobs for hundreds of thousands and millions of people and give them

a vested stake in protecting this because their livelihood depends on it. john: thank you. good luck. i should add that you are not just in this for the money. you are libertarian who along with john mackey and others, you just want to prove that this works. >> i actually came. i used to think that the government was the solution and market was the problem and then i learned economics. at one. markets create jobs. capitalism creates jobs. people are poor. they don't have jobs. very simple. create a properly structured free-market system with a good rule of law, secure property rights and economic freedom entrepreneurs create hundreds of thousands and millions, ultimately billions of jobs. that is the best way to create global peace and prosperity. and a passionate believer in the human humanity, and want to

create peace and prosperity globally. very simple. give peace a chance. let us create millions of jobs. john: thank you. [applause] coming up for, it's your turn. the audience is firm. [ lisa ] my name's lisa, and chantix helped me quit. also, the ultimate result of the

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♪ john: we are back with your questions or comments from my guess. congressman vin jordan. york city commissioner of human resources and author of after the welfare state. so first from facebook. dave hamilton asks god could a collapse of the welfare state ever be peaceful? i don't see a collapse happening with of chaos. >> i think absolutely. this gigantic lumbering staggering welfare state. the 1990's, they ask some hard questions. this was not affordable. they manage to touch from their welfare state very dramatically.

most other countries in europe. more free labor markets. canada has and a good job in this. they went directly to the voters this is the reality that we face even further to go. the cuts are much deeper than most politicians are willing to address, but they can be made if you have an adult conversation about it. it is about arithmetic, not fantasy all wishes. >> a question for the congressman. how did you imagine that we can overcome the bipartisan issues? controversial issues such as welfare reform. >> well, look. that's why i have elections. compromise. they did not elect me to a compromise with barack obama. we have a few more weeks in this

campaign. and we went like that they were going to will have. [indiscernible] >> a lot of folks who run and work for a private charity, nonprofits themselves believe that the government should do more to help the poor rather than less. why do you think that is if they do such a better job than the government does to iraq. >> we are seeing a lot of groups like catholic charities becoming effectively lobby. i don't give them any money. give money to that organization in this bandit lobbying to get the government to do their job. >> second understand the rationale. doing good work. all the government would give us more money. real ticket. >> a lot of people do a good job. unfortunately they become a it -- addictive to welfare. in effect corrupted civil society. one of the deep problems with the welfare state.

people he should be dedicated to helping others treacly. >> i admire your good intentions and trying to help. john: i sense of but coming. >> to you think that -- do you think that the the department said individual responsibility to have less in the back of our minds saying we don't have to take care of it. we can leave it to the state. >> i think their is a sense among individuals that now that the government is doing and i'll have to. i have seen that. i have also. people think government should do it. why should i. i think that is bad for america. >> how long do you think it will take if we eventually succeed in ending the welfare state farm mutual aid society to return? >> the first point is a welfare state is really going to end itself. it is broke.

bankrupt. it really cannot be sustained. so the question is what are we going to do about that? i think that we need to begin, and this is where politicians and officeholders have an important role, finding a transition, getting people into a savings for themselves. we have to cut of subsidies. agribusiness, cut out all of the wasteful expenditures. maybe stop invading other countries. that would save a few trillion. john: congressman jordan, representing the republicans. they seem eager to spend more on defense. >> it is a dangerous world. peace through strength -- strength. a strong military to project strength around the world. it's important. remember our allies, this demonstration.

i think it is just flat wrong. and then third, you need to rethink foreign aid. i have a colleague has a great line. we don't have to pay people to hate estimate probably do it for free. so we need to everything to foreign aid. here is the bottom line. the world is a scary place. it is a dangerous world, but it's a better place with our values, history, heritage. that is why it is all important. we need to be careful. john: thank you. when we returned my take on life after the welfare state. [ mujahid ] there was a little bit of trepidation, not quite knowing what the next phase was going to be, you know, because you been, you know, this is what you had been doing. you know, working, working, working, working, working, working. and now you're talking about, well you know, i won't be, and i get the chance to spend more time with my wife and my kids. it's my world. that's my world.

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♪ john: after the welfare state, that is an optimistic title and assumes there will be an end to our current destructive dependency system. that is by no means clear. in europe today people demonstrate and right to protest almost any cutback, and they have an absurd welfare state. why are they so upset? increase government along replace civil servants extra for coming to work on time. using a computer. in italy teachers no longer can retire with a fat pension at age 39. there are other cutbacks, but not many. european welfare states are bigger than ours.

now growing faster than theirs. is this what we face? once people are used to getting free stuff they fight to hold onto it. our welfare state money will run out. people can't keep voting themselves free stuff. well, i guess they can, but the money will run out. mitt romney expresses let's hear what he says about 47 percent of americans are people. >> government has a responsibility to pay for them. believe they are entitled to the health care. john: entitled. people feel entitled to government handouts, they tend to do this. when governments take some handouts away. this hope, maybe we will learn from what is going on in europe. probably not. americans don't pay much attention.

the few countries did reform the welfare state without bloodshed. socialist canada cut government spending from 17% of gdp. obama currently spends 24%, by the way. canada cut from 17% to 11%. just like that. and what happened? canada prospered. rose from $0.72 to $1.2 a day. less government was cut for people. even for poor people. 11% government leaves plenty to help the helpless. in fact, if 24 percent were not taken from us we as free individuals would do more to help the poor. such private charity does a better job. closer to the people that served. better as supporting those who really need help from those who need a push. criticized for giving most of his charity money to the mormon church.

a writer for the nation said he gave virtually nothing to any program that focuses directly. it is clear that romney's donations are but taking care of his own. this is just ignorant. really is charity help support people. mormon subplots of non mormons. for example, they have a monster warehouse filled with food. they give it to anyone in need, any religion. when that earthquake hit 80 relief from mormons got there before government halted. after hurricane katrina, the same deal. even the new york times reported that. the mormon trucks were the first to arrive. tvs said the efficiency of the mormon welfare apparatus is legendary. the trucks were there before the national guard even allow the relief through. the response is incredibly fast an incredibly efficient. when people need help we should stop automatically thinking that governme